Yes I agree with you here. This is how we can learn from each other and come up with good ideas with the help of others. And this process is only going faster and faster, espcially now when we have internet and can watch video of how others do things in other countries using youtube for example.andeug skrev:
However, in your case, regarding your relationship with the architect, it would have been better to bring this discussion up at your initial meeting. When you brought this discussion up with the architect after you basically had told him his design-ideas were horrible, and that you were going to talk to a lawyer about it, it was a matter of unfortunate timing that may have caused him to become protective of himself.
I agree, I cannot exclude the self-defense mechanism caused by the discussion we've had immediately after the pre-study. That was my first reaction, not being aware of what rights I have and how the situation can escalate.M Maijckel skrev:
It is very important that I have never used words like horrible or terrible. I have only given feedback on his work, that it's not feasible, lacks any agreement with me and it's not what I was expecting from the home he designed. He instead replied, emotionally, rather than rationally:
"I’m quite insulted of your negligence to understand your own undertaking in our agreement. And your attempts to undermine my proposal as non-functional is offending. I’m not sure at all that I want to continue any work after this. Sorry but my trust in you as a reliable client is severely damaged."
So again, I am not sure who has insulted who, and if it was me insulting him. The architect still believes that his design is beautiful and feasible, and:
"As I told you the cost for the pre-study is what you have to invest to find out if you like my ideas and want to continue the project. The cost for it is reasonable in regard of the level of experience, work and creativity invested by me."
These kinds of e-mails have been exchanged between us, without anything offending, but more with direction to blame me for refusing his work.
I have big hopes that I will find my answers in the book called "Arkitektens uppdrag. Utg 3", and that the architecture company will accept that they have not followed the basic and functional processes and guidelines towards working with a customer who wants to build a house.
To describe the situation even stranger, the below part was in the specs, which I doubt the architect he has read. Why have I put organized and transparent? Because the customer, me, can have some strange ideas, and I trust that he will tell me that I am wrong and discuss the steps in an organized way. We need to work rationally and not emotionally, and there was no proper communication between us, as I thought he knew what he was doing:
This was the beginning of Chapter 2 from the below document, which I have created for him:
Redigerat:
For your idea to have any real possibility of reaching the architect, (and not just make him even more annoyed) there must be a written reference to this book in your contract.
Otherwise this book offers only guidelines and recommendations, and the architect may therefore (depending on your contract) not be contractually required to follow these guidelines.
I thought about this, but we risk putting more gas on the fire, so it is better to avoid it. If you have some suggestions, please do write me in private, as any help or helpful information is appreciated.M Maijckel skrev:
I ordered this book on 3rd of January, and I would like to have a face-to-face meeting with the architect soon to discuss the recommended steps, of course, if he would accept the appointment. But first, I need to read it myself and select the relevant items, as this might be my only hope. I'll keep my calm when I write to the architect again and make sure that I have the facts on the table if we meet again. This has gone way too far for both, unfortunately...
And imagine that for how the way the contract looks, the architect could claim that he can charge me for over 100 hours for this work because three people have worked on my project. My understanding from the contract was that I only had to pay 30.000SEK+VAT for that pre-study. However, you have noticed that the architect was not hesitant to say that he wants to charge me for over 60 hours for interrupting our contract if I am contacting a lawyer, even if his pre-study was not good.
Redigerat:
I think he meant he will make a counterclaim for another 28000kr if you take him to court. That means the court will look at your contract, all your emails and listen to you both before they decide how much money is paid from one of you to the other.
Yes I agree. And unfortunately, my advise to you is the same as before.
I also know it's a bitter pill to swallow, but I think you should take these lessons with you and move on to another architect.
I am not sure how are 40.000SEK for your wallet, but mine has entirely drained after this experience. Therefore, I am continuing to work on recovering my money, because all have started badly from the beginning.M Maijckel skrev:
To continue on the topic, I recently found that the ABK 09 contract is standard in Sweden and used for architectural services. The contract lists in detail all the missions to be performed and an estimate of the time required for their execution. Such information is missing from my contract. The allocated time may vary, but the customer must confirm the changes.
Furthermore, what customers can find are the below materials:
1) Arkitektens uppdrag. Utg 3 - https://byggtjanst.se/bokhandel/upphandling/arkitektens-uppdrag.-utg-3
“Arkitektens uppdrag utgör rekommendationer för normal kvalitet och omfattning på arkitektföretagets redovisning av ett uppdrag. Plan-, hus-, inrednings- och landskapsuppdrag redovisas var för sig. Lämplig gränsdragning mellan olika arkitektuppdrag måste därför göras i varje projekt. Syftet med skriften är att den för såväl privata som offentliga beställare ska vara ett hjälpmedel och underlätta bestämningen av konsultuppdragets innehåll, kvalitet och omfattning vid upphandling av arkitekttjänster.
Skriften blir en del av kontraktshandlingen när den förtecknats i kontraktet. Eftersom varje uppdrag är unikt, är det av stor vikt att innehållet på alla sidor värderas och ges det innehåll som är specifikt för respektive uppdrag.
Denna uppdaterade utgåva har tagits fram av Svensk Byggtjänst i samarbete med Scheiwiller Svensson Arkitektkontor AB samt branschorganisationen Svenska Teknik & Designföretagen (STD-företagen)."
2) E-BOK ABK 09 (the architecture contract) - https://byggtjanst.se/bokhandel/upphandling/e-bok-abk-09
“Boken ABK 09 står för Allmänna bestämmelser för konsultuppdrag inom arkitekt- och ingenjörsverksamhet och innehåller allmänna regler gällande konsultuppdrag för ingenjörs- och arkitektverksamhet.
ABK 09 kan tillämpas av samtliga teknikområden, allt från uppstart och idéarbete till slutgiltig detaljplanering i arbetet. Reglerna är genomarbetade och godkända av branschorganisationen Byggandets Kontaktkommitté. ABK 08 ersätter ABK 96.”
3) ABK 09 Allmänna bestämmelser för konsultuppdrag inom arkitekt- och ingenjörsverksamhet - https://byggtjanst.se/bokhandel/upphandling/abk-09
“ABK 09 omfattar allmänna bestämmelser för konsultuppdrag inom arkitekt- och ingenjörsverksamhet.
ABK 09 kan användas inom alla teknikområden, från inledande skeden på idéstadiet till avslutande detaljprojektering under utförandeskedet. Bestämmelserna är utarbetade och antagna av branschorganisationen Byggandets Kontraktskommitté. Ersätter ABK 96.”
Enclosed is the ABK 09 contract which you can also download from the ByggTjänst website.
ABK 09 is a standard contract which can be used between a client and his architect if they out of their own free will choose to use this contract. If the client and the architect has not used this contract, the terms of this contract does not apply between them in their agreement.
So, regarding this contract (ABK 09), you should have presented this to your architect at your initial meeting. If he had accepted the terms of this contract at that time, then he would be required to follow this contract. Bringing this contract up now only makes me question your understanding of basic contract law.
I would recommend you read about contract law before focusing on something that will lead you nowhere.
For example a book about european contract law such as this one
European Contract Law - Ebok - Hein Kotz (9780192520364) | Bokus
It's the architect's responsibility to comply with the current market's practices, just like all the architects who are members of SA do, not to mislead the customer and to offer the information transparently to their customers. This is how a healthy consumer market works, assuming that an inexperienced customer goes to an experienced service delivery provider. I bet the same thing Konsumentverket would say, along with ARN.M Maijckel skrev:
The architect has not presented his hidden fees, contractors, allocated time for each task, and so on. But, of course, this is at his own's architecture company's risk if his commercial practice is non-compliant with the generally applicable guidelines.
ABK 09 it's the architect's responsibility to present it to me, in case that he knew about it, or eventually a contract in a form that is similar to ABK 09.
I will also stop responding to your comments since your initial proposal was not to find a solution but to accept it as a financial loss to my disadvantage. You are also trying to reinvent the wheel when there is valid documentation regarding the architectural services.
Redigerat:
First off, I'm sorry to hear of your experience. I'd like to assure you, it's not representative of the majority of swedish architects.
I think I can clear up a few things.
You're right that the word in itself not is protected, but the three letter title mentioned in the thread, is. (SAR for building architects, SIR for interior designers, and LAR for landscape architects.)
ABK09 mentioned, is a standard agreement that applies to contracts only if it is specifically referenced in the contract. It is also typically meant for business-to-business type situations.
As a private consumer, you're protected by the much stronger law called konsumentjänstlagen. It places a lot more responsibility on the company that delivers goods or services architect in this case.
I suggest you contact your local council (kommun) and speak to "konsumentvägledare" or "konsumentombudsman".
They can look into your situation more closely, and I think they are also in cahoots with ARN (allmänna reklamationsnämnden) who can issue strong recommendations to a business to stay in line, or end up blacklisted.
I advice against taking them to court. It is possible to win, but its a gamble with a lot higher stakes than you are out of pocket at the moment.
Hope this helps!
I think I can clear up a few things.
You're right that the word in itself not is protected, but the three letter title mentioned in the thread, is. (SAR for building architects, SIR for interior designers, and LAR for landscape architects.)
ABK09 mentioned, is a standard agreement that applies to contracts only if it is specifically referenced in the contract. It is also typically meant for business-to-business type situations.
As a private consumer, you're protected by the much stronger law called konsumentjänstlagen. It places a lot more responsibility on the company that delivers goods or services architect in this case.
I suggest you contact your local council (kommun) and speak to "konsumentvägledare" or "konsumentombudsman".
They can look into your situation more closely, and I think they are also in cahoots with ARN (allmänna reklamationsnämnden) who can issue strong recommendations to a business to stay in line, or end up blacklisted.
I advice against taking them to court. It is possible to win, but its a gamble with a lot higher stakes than you are out of pocket at the moment.
Hope this helps!
First of all, thank you very much for your positive comment and encouragement.
The architect I have hired is not a member of SA because he is just an intermediate to his architects/contractors, from which I am not sure who's a more experienced "Architect" than the other. For example, I always thought that the architect I hired would design the house's floorplan as he was claiming all his work on his behalf, but no, it was another architect contractor I wasn't even aware of.
I can be an architect, too, and sell dreams to anyone because the "architect" title is not protected. This unique "flexibility" of Sweden in the architectural market is really not good for the architects who have been passing through the university and they are serious. 40.000SEK they are a considerable amount of money even for a debutant architect who could do a better job than what I got.
You are correct in your statement, and I know that I have hired the wrong consultant.
I've had my last talk today with the architect and let him know that I will raise a complaint to ARN. He proposed that I stay only with the 40.000SEK invoice if I retract my complaint. I told him that if he sends me any additional invoices, I will follow by reporting him to Polisen, Konsumentverket, and I will give a heads-up to Kronofogden and its collectors, so he retracted back the idea of sending additional invoices. I was in control, and this is how bad it has gone because the architect doesn't want to hear and understand the importance of having a suitable contractual agreement with his customers and not the kind of contract he has done with me. So he thinks he's right, and I was the one blamed for breaching the contract without any reason.P pysen78 skrev:
I've read the ABK09 contract guidelines in English. Within the economic offer, there will be at least information on the specialists involved in the design process, the work stages, the time of the design process, the proposed design fee organized by work stages/missions (as appropriate, the own fee of the Architect, of the technical team of specialists, or the general fee). In order to avoid confusion in the interpretation of the offer by the client, the contract requires the inclusion of the specialists whose fees are not included and/or the missions that are not included in the economic offer. Lots of fees (with red flags) and unexpected expenses have come during the revision of the pre-study, because I am the kind of customer who puts questions and he is technically knowledgeable, in general.
I've checked with ARN and KV if there have been any complaints against this company, and they couldn't find anything. So, the only way to attack is the company's architectural services contract and the work that has been delivered to me, out of my requirements and our contract's scope.
I'll make sure that I prepare the documents in a suitable format, I will use the right voice/text tone in my complaint to ARN, and that everything will be fully documented through enclosed relevant e-mails.
Thank you very much for the tips regarding the local kommun (Täby), I didn't know about them.
Redigerat:
I understand that you aren't happy with the results given to you.
The question I keep asking myself after reading most of the posts, is how well you have executed your 'job' as the customer.
Did you get what you said that you didn't want in a direct way?
I think that you are going to lose this, since I don't see how the architect legally have done something wrong, not regarding to the extra money either since he can argue that the contract states that he can expect to continue his work after the pre study, but you terminated the contract. ABK09 clearly gives him the right to demand the expected profit from the job when you decide to terminate the contract.
My advice is to not mention anything about ABK09, if anything use konsumenttjänstlagen as ABK09 in many ways is written to make a relatively small firm (architects, engineers and so on) a possibility against the customers who normally are much much bigger.
I advice you, like the people before me, to leave it alone and be "happy" that you didn't continue working with someone you clearly don't trust.
We all make mistakes, I'm far from rich but have done mistakes costing me way more than 30 000 kr, more than once.
The question I keep asking myself after reading most of the posts, is how well you have executed your 'job' as the customer.
Did you get what you said that you didn't want in a direct way?
I think that you are going to lose this, since I don't see how the architect legally have done something wrong, not regarding to the extra money either since he can argue that the contract states that he can expect to continue his work after the pre study, but you terminated the contract. ABK09 clearly gives him the right to demand the expected profit from the job when you decide to terminate the contract.
My advice is to not mention anything about ABK09, if anything use konsumenttjänstlagen as ABK09 in many ways is written to make a relatively small firm (architects, engineers and so on) a possibility against the customers who normally are much much bigger.
I advice you, like the people before me, to leave it alone and be "happy" that you didn't continue working with someone you clearly don't trust.
We all make mistakes, I'm far from rich but have done mistakes costing me way more than 30 000 kr, more than once.
Our communication was only through e-mails, without images/sketches, and only with text. Everything was on time from my side.D Disktrasan skrev:
After the visit to my plot, there have been no meetings initiated by the architect to show me what he is working on. I let him coordinate the steps to avoid unnecessary friction because I thought he knew what he was doing, sometimes stating "you can trust me, I built over 100 houses in my years of experience and I never had an unhappy customer". I was deceived and documented too little when I approached him.
Also, the sauna was missing from his design, and the bathroom has been put on the opposite part of the building. I concluded that he has not read the specs, or he has let his consultant design the house on his own.
Regarding what the architect was intending to build, the size of the house has been increased by over 25% than stated in our contract.
According to the Swedish Consumer Law:
"Näringsidkarens skyldighet att avråda
6 § Om en tjänst med hänsyn till priset, värdet av föremålet för tjänsten eller andra särskilda omständigheter inte kan anses vara till rimlig nytta för konsumenten, skall näringsidkaren avråda honom från att låta utföra tjänsten.
Om det först sedan tjänsten har börjat utföras visar sig att den inte kan anses vara till rimlig nytta för konsumenten eller att priset för tjänsten kan bli betydligt högre än konsumenten hade kunnat räkna med, skall näringsidkaren underrätta konsumenten om förhållandet och begära hans anvisningar."
One of the architecture company's comments through e-mail, to the customer, who's a single person:
“I fully respect any budget demands you have and the design I will propose will be easy to scale down to meet your needs. However, I think it’s wise not to plan for a house that is slightly to small for an normal family of four people.
With a limited budget we can instead plan for a two step building process where you wait with the finalization of the second floor. That could possibly reduce the cost for the house (with house in this and future conversations I mean everything built above the finished slab) to 2.5 milj. kr. It is much more economical and easy to get the total volume of the house in place, even if it is unfinished inside, than planning for a future extension. This means that a minimum budget could be 3.5 milj kr including ground works and slab.
Many of my clients increase their loans halfway through or at the end of the building process. They ask a broker for a new valuation of the house when it shows it’s potential to the market. I think your house will get a top value for the area at that point. This is also a reason why it’s good not to build to small.”
The house the architect was designing has started to increase in size and I had no idea that it would be one with curved walls, very challenging to be built. Absolutely no idea because he has not consulted me regarding what he was working. Everything had to be custom-made in that house, including a massive amount of time spent on finishing the corners of the walls for each room. I wanted an economical and easy-to-build house.
Shrinking his unnecessarily increased design also costs time, which is an activity that I've had to pay. After my complaints to him, I got a house which is still curved, but in around 70sqm for BTA, which was another task that I haven't given my consent to him.
Designing a house requires more interaction from/with the customer, and a few meetings to analyze the progress and agree on the design. I thought that such meetings are part of the allocated budget for each task. Unfortunately, I've had no legal knowledge about how such a contract should look. I got trapped into terms that the architect still thinks are okay for his branch, and he believes that he has delivered his service according to the contract.Graffen skrev:
What you see right now is an upset customer, angry with himself, and who needs advice and help.
I am truly sorry if you have understood something else from my posting. And yes, I am not perfect, but I try to learn from my mistakes and stay humble when is the case.
Redigerat:
It's one thing being right, and another actually getting justice in court of law.
You received sound advice before regarding this, i.e. take it as a learning experience in how to communicate openly with an architect and consider the money you already paid lost. But what I am hearing from you now regarding escalating to police etc, will not lead you anywhere. In fact, you can't escalate this to the police at all. All you're doing is making the situation between you and the architect worse, and suddenly it's all about principle and you will both lose a lot of money in court.
Trust me, move on to another architect with good references and make it clear that all proposals will be reviewed by you at an early stage with a clear line of communication.
You received sound advice before regarding this, i.e. take it as a learning experience in how to communicate openly with an architect and consider the money you already paid lost. But what I am hearing from you now regarding escalating to police etc, will not lead you anywhere. In fact, you can't escalate this to the police at all. All you're doing is making the situation between you and the architect worse, and suddenly it's all about principle and you will both lose a lot of money in court.
Trust me, move on to another architect with good references and make it clear that all proposals will be reviewed by you at an early stage with a clear line of communication.