Buying a bergvärme system NIBE F1226 vs. IVT Greenline HE C7?
I do apologise for posting in English, I hope it's acceptable here? I moved to Sweden just three weeks ago and I'm working on learning Swedish, but it's going to take a while... :eek:
I've received quotes from two companies for a bergvärme installation to my 155m2 house. One has proposed the IVT Greenline HE C7 7.2kW pump with 160m drilling depth, the other company suggests a NIBE F1226 8kW pump with 140m drilling depth. I don't know the current electricity consumption as I only just moved here and the house has a combination wood / El boiler right now.
Because I'm new here and bergvärme doesn't really exist in the UK I have no knowledge of what to look for in these systems and don't know how good or bad the reputation of IVT or NIBE might be. Researching things myself is a little difficult as everything is in Swedish so I thought I'd ask for advice, if anyone could please summarise the key things to look for when buying these systems and how the two proposed pumps might compare, that would be fabulous.
Many thanks. Tack så mycket!!
I've received quotes from two companies for a bergvärme installation to my 155m2 house. One has proposed the IVT Greenline HE C7 7.2kW pump with 160m drilling depth, the other company suggests a NIBE F1226 8kW pump with 140m drilling depth. I don't know the current electricity consumption as I only just moved here and the house has a combination wood / El boiler right now.
Because I'm new here and bergvärme doesn't really exist in the UK I have no knowledge of what to look for in these systems and don't know how good or bad the reputation of IVT or NIBE might be. Researching things myself is a little difficult as everything is in Swedish so I thought I'd ask for advice, if anyone could please summarise the key things to look for when buying these systems and how the two proposed pumps might compare, that would be fabulous.
Many thanks. Tack så mycket!!
Just to add, the NIBE system is about 20.000 kr cheaper than the IVT one, which is obviously an important factor. If the running costs of the NIBE turn out to be higher though, I'd be open to the idea of buying the more expensive one so the lifetime cost is lower.
The difference in price is probably the depth of the hole and not the pump or installation of it, both pump manufacturers are pretty good Nibe i have read of less problems then IVT but i am installing an IVT in my new house, though from the Nibe seller i would ask for à suggestion with a hole with the same depth since the deeper the hole is the more energy is stored in hole since you have much larger area to take the energy from.MrCurry skrev:
Thanks Jensnorrland. Actually the specification sheet for the F1226 says it is for a hole 120-140m so it seems the installer is already at the top end of the depth for that pump. I wonder if there's benefit in drilling further?
The IVT installer has entered 200 kvm as the area of the house in his calculations, so maybe his proposed system has a little more "head room" and won't be running at max capacity so often? This seems to me something which might increase the reliability of a system such as this.
The IVT installer has highlighted an annual running cost in kWH but I don't have this for the NIBE system. I wonder how reliable these spec sheet figures might be anyway?
one other question actually... The NIBE installer proposed to drill around 1m away from the front of the house but the IVT installer said they usually drill around 4m away from the house, so would drill around the back of my property. Is there a reason why drilling around a metre from the house would be bad?
The IVT installer has entered 200 kvm as the area of the house in his calculations, so maybe his proposed system has a little more "head room" and won't be running at max capacity so often? This seems to me something which might increase the reliability of a system such as this.
The IVT installer has highlighted an annual running cost in kWH but I don't have this for the NIBE system. I wonder how reliable these spec sheet figures might be anyway?
one other question actually... The NIBE installer proposed to drill around 1m away from the front of the house but the IVT installer said they usually drill around 4m away from the house, so would drill around the back of my property. Is there a reason why drilling around a metre from the house would be bad?
Bästa svaret
I selected Thermia some years ago. Partly because there is statitics published by the insurance company Folksam about failures in heat pump systems. There Thermia (then) had a factor of 100 - 200 less failures than Nibe and IVT. I.e where IVT and Nibe had 1000 - 2000 failures for certain models, Thermia had 5 - 20 failures.
Another reason for me to not select Nibe is that Nibe is often installed by normal plumbing companies. Where the people installing it, are perhaps installing a Nibe once per month, and cleaning sewers, installing showers etc. the rest of the time. While IVT and Thermia is installed by "certified" companies, certified by IVT or Thermia. The may still be normal plumbing companies, so I selected an installer that only works with bergvärme. I think you get a better expert in that way.
Regardless of whitch one you select, try to buy a deeper hole than they calculate as needed, it gives some extra sequrity, a hole can be good or better. An extra 20 - 30 m often cost 4 - 5 000.
It also gives some margin for the future. A colleague swapped out their 15 year old pump for a new, They had to get an extra hole drilled. Because the new pump is more efficient. If the old pump consumed 3 kw electricity to deliver 10kw heat to the house, the new consumes 2 kw electricity to deliver 10kw heat. That means that the hole must deliver 1 kw more than before.
You might get into the same situation in ex. 20 years. You get a new pump that can pull more energy from the hole, the the hole must be able to deliver.
Another reason for me to not select Nibe is that Nibe is often installed by normal plumbing companies. Where the people installing it, are perhaps installing a Nibe once per month, and cleaning sewers, installing showers etc. the rest of the time. While IVT and Thermia is installed by "certified" companies, certified by IVT or Thermia. The may still be normal plumbing companies, so I selected an installer that only works with bergvärme. I think you get a better expert in that way.
Regardless of whitch one you select, try to buy a deeper hole than they calculate as needed, it gives some extra sequrity, a hole can be good or better. An extra 20 - 30 m often cost 4 - 5 000.
It also gives some margin for the future. A colleague swapped out their 15 year old pump for a new, They had to get an extra hole drilled. Because the new pump is more efficient. If the old pump consumed 3 kw electricity to deliver 10kw heat to the house, the new consumes 2 kw electricity to deliver 10kw heat. That means that the hole must deliver 1 kw more than before.
You might get into the same situation in ex. 20 years. You get a new pump that can pull more energy from the hole, the the hole must be able to deliver.
Medlem
· Västra Götaland
· 3 965 inlägg
Please provide some information about your house, like size, when was it built, which county, one or two floors etc. I installed a NIBE 1226 8kW two and a half years ago in my 110+110 sqm walk out basement house built in 1974 (about the peak in housing size in Sweden before the oil crisis started to shrink evertyhing) but before the 1980s when things like insulation and drainage took a major leap forward. My house basically went from 35-40 MWh per year to one third. This energy consumption is typical for houses of this period.
One thing to consider is that if your house was built in the early 1970s then check the radiators. It was fashion in these days to have extremely low (usually single) panels, 30 cm high or so, which was very compatible with oil boilers and their 70-80 degree output. To run geothermal efficiently, you should stay below 50 C. Ask the installer what they think about your radiators. Basically all basement level radiator 30 cm high, especially singel panel, should be beefed up to 60 cm double panel with dual convector panels (these are labelled 22K).
In general, Swedish geothermal installations are designed to cover half the houses peak power need, this covers 90% or so of the yearly energy needs since the number of extremely cold days is usually small in southern Sweden. This might differ in northern Sweden.
Installing higher capacity increases the power coverage and reduces the number of days where You need to top up with electricity. Unfortunately, the average duty cycle of the pump will drop, leading to more start/stops which waers the pump more. This balance between duty cycle and cost of electricity is a hot topic on ByggaHus so I will not go into it more.
One popular solution (if it is practical to install) is to choose a moderate pump size, like 8kW in my case, and then install a wood burner to cover the really cold days if electricity is expensive or if you fear the future might bring power limitations to consumers since Sweden has some plans to phase out nuclear. If so then check local regulations for using wood burners. In general, it will not be a problem to install a "Svanen" certified burner especially if the main heating source is geothermal since the wood burner is then unlikely to run all year.
And yes, to drill a few metres extra while the crew is at it is not that expensive, i think about 250 kr per meter incl VAT. 20-30 metres extra is never wrong.
One thing to consider is that if your house was built in the early 1970s then check the radiators. It was fashion in these days to have extremely low (usually single) panels, 30 cm high or so, which was very compatible with oil boilers and their 70-80 degree output. To run geothermal efficiently, you should stay below 50 C. Ask the installer what they think about your radiators. Basically all basement level radiator 30 cm high, especially singel panel, should be beefed up to 60 cm double panel with dual convector panels (these are labelled 22K).
In general, Swedish geothermal installations are designed to cover half the houses peak power need, this covers 90% or so of the yearly energy needs since the number of extremely cold days is usually small in southern Sweden. This might differ in northern Sweden.
Installing higher capacity increases the power coverage and reduces the number of days where You need to top up with electricity. Unfortunately, the average duty cycle of the pump will drop, leading to more start/stops which waers the pump more. This balance between duty cycle and cost of electricity is a hot topic on ByggaHus so I will not go into it more.
One popular solution (if it is practical to install) is to choose a moderate pump size, like 8kW in my case, and then install a wood burner to cover the really cold days if electricity is expensive or if you fear the future might bring power limitations to consumers since Sweden has some plans to phase out nuclear. If so then check local regulations for using wood burners. In general, it will not be a problem to install a "Svanen" certified burner especially if the main heating source is geothermal since the wood burner is then unlikely to run all year.
And yes, to drill a few metres extra while the crew is at it is not that expensive, i think about 250 kr per meter incl VAT. 20-30 metres extra is never wrong.
Thanks for your very illuminating reply Anders. To answer your questions, the house was built 1978 and is 155 m2 and the garage is 100m2 but I will only heat a quarter of the garage area, so let's say the overall heated area is 180 m2. Location is close to örebro.
The currently installed system is a wood / electric combi boiler (CTC EL Combi) plus an electric hot water cylinder. Underfloor heating is installed downstairs and upstairs we have single panel radiators 400mm high. I will check as you suggested with the installers whether these radiators will be ok with the new system, but they are currently working with the lowish temp feed the underfloor heating receives (35-40C).
It's fascinating to me that you've pointed out the bergvärme system won't supply all the heat required on a cold winter day and will be supplemented with electric heating - I was not aware of this at all! You suggested installing a wood burner to supplement the new system, but as I already have such a system should I instead simply keep it? I have until now asked the bergvärme installers to uninstall and dispose of it and I believe they are both charging extra for this.
The currently installed system is a wood / electric combi boiler (CTC EL Combi) plus an electric hot water cylinder. Underfloor heating is installed downstairs and upstairs we have single panel radiators 400mm high. I will check as you suggested with the installers whether these radiators will be ok with the new system, but they are currently working with the lowish temp feed the underfloor heating receives (35-40C).
It's fascinating to me that you've pointed out the bergvärme system won't supply all the heat required on a cold winter day and will be supplemented with electric heating - I was not aware of this at all! You suggested installing a wood burner to supplement the new system, but as I already have such a system should I instead simply keep it? I have until now asked the bergvärme installers to uninstall and dispose of it and I believe they are both charging extra for this.
Medlem
· Västra Götaland
· 3 965 inlägg
Hi!
Regarding the CTC El Combi, ask if You can simply dock the BVP (BergVärmePump) to this system. It looks like quite a standard system and yes the boiler heats up the tanks to e g 80-90C and then there is a shunt valve that regulates the feed temperature to the heating system.
I guess it might be possible with some suitable control system to mix the bvp and output from the boiler together (I think you can use a so called "bivalent shunt" (CTC VRB243 http://www.ctc.se/tillbehoret/shuntventil-bivalent-vrb243/) and a control system for the forward temperature) but this is beyond my knowledge.Basically what it does is to take all forward water from the bvp at low heating demands and at higher setting it mixes in the hotter water from the CTC EL Combi.
The hot water cylinder is for tap water and this function will be covered by the NIBE (or IVT if you choose that system) so can probably be removed.
Please note that underfloor systems usually use very low temperatures like 30C in order to to destroy the wooden flooring. Wooden flooring usually is not compatible with more than 30C or so, plastic carpets can take more than this.
If You want the bvp to be able to supply all the heating on a cold day and still have a reasonable duty cycle on milder days then there are variable speed types, i believe the NIBE model is called 1255. If you go for a on/off version, check out the 1245 for roughly 12 thousand more since it can supply four different circuits with different temperatures. Underfloor heating downstairs and high temp radiators upstair might benefit from this, or if the system i split in the boiler room you might be able to install a shunt there to balance the two floors. The 1245 also allows You to connect it to the internet so you can check the operation of the system while You're on the beach in Thailand.
In my house i run the basement radiators full blast with no thermostat mounted but upstairs it is usually 3-4 degrees watmer so thermostats are needed and I was able to keep the 30 cm double panel radiators in the dining area and living room, just replaced some marginal radiators in the bedroms. Your mileage may vary, exact radiator selection depends very much on the insulation on the floors.
Regarding the CTC El Combi, ask if You can simply dock the BVP (BergVärmePump) to this system. It looks like quite a standard system and yes the boiler heats up the tanks to e g 80-90C and then there is a shunt valve that regulates the feed temperature to the heating system.
I guess it might be possible with some suitable control system to mix the bvp and output from the boiler together (I think you can use a so called "bivalent shunt" (CTC VRB243 http://www.ctc.se/tillbehoret/shuntventil-bivalent-vrb243/) and a control system for the forward temperature) but this is beyond my knowledge.Basically what it does is to take all forward water from the bvp at low heating demands and at higher setting it mixes in the hotter water from the CTC EL Combi.
The hot water cylinder is for tap water and this function will be covered by the NIBE (or IVT if you choose that system) so can probably be removed.
Please note that underfloor systems usually use very low temperatures like 30C in order to to destroy the wooden flooring. Wooden flooring usually is not compatible with more than 30C or so, plastic carpets can take more than this.
If You want the bvp to be able to supply all the heating on a cold day and still have a reasonable duty cycle on milder days then there are variable speed types, i believe the NIBE model is called 1255. If you go for a on/off version, check out the 1245 for roughly 12 thousand more since it can supply four different circuits with different temperatures. Underfloor heating downstairs and high temp radiators upstair might benefit from this, or if the system i split in the boiler room you might be able to install a shunt there to balance the two floors. The 1245 also allows You to connect it to the internet so you can check the operation of the system while You're on the beach in Thailand.
In my house i run the basement radiators full blast with no thermostat mounted but upstairs it is usually 3-4 degrees watmer so thermostats are needed and I was able to keep the 30 cm double panel radiators in the dining area and living room, just replaced some marginal radiators in the bedroms. Your mileage may vary, exact radiator selection depends very much on the insulation on the floors.
Garagebyggare
· Västmanland
· 124 inlägg
As Hempularen allready said, the statistics from the insurance company is a good start to get confidence in what brand of pump to get.
I invested in bergvärme just a month ago, and took in quotations from official installation companies that IVT, Thermia and NIBE recommended in my area. Based on the insurance statistics these big brands seem very similar quallity wise, and the technology is also similar. I requested the quotations to contain the exact same size of pump, same drill depth etc to make them comparable. IVT was 135k, NIBE 125k and Thermia 140k swedish pesos.
My final decission to go with Thermia was simply because the installation company gave me the best and most competent impression.
When it comes to on/off or variable speed compressors I choose on/off due to two reasons;
1. on/off is an older, well tested and more simple sollution that may offer better life time
2. the variable speed ones are usually a bit more efficient, but the savings did not justify the added cost for the more expensive pump.
This reasoning should be valid for you aswell, since you are looking at a ~8kW pump. For houses that need more power it is a bit different, and the common recommendation seems to be to go for a variable pump.
And I would back up what Anders_Nilsson said, go for some extra depth. Personally I went for 180meters even though the pump will work well with just 140meters. The cost for the extra depth is really small, and will increase the efficiency a bit, lower the risk of freezing the hole, and also secure that you most likely wont have to drill more in 20-30 years when its time to change pump
If the calculations from different companies you send a quoatation differs, if you want, you can check what data they have used. I noticed they calculated on different hole efficiencies for example, giving 1C colder or hotter Brine temperature can skew the results a bit, also they can calculate on different output temp at DUT etc.. so to get a good idea of efficiency and savings, I found the data sheets and my own calculations more interesting than trying to compare the quotes.
I invested in bergvärme just a month ago, and took in quotations from official installation companies that IVT, Thermia and NIBE recommended in my area. Based on the insurance statistics these big brands seem very similar quallity wise, and the technology is also similar. I requested the quotations to contain the exact same size of pump, same drill depth etc to make them comparable. IVT was 135k, NIBE 125k and Thermia 140k swedish pesos.
My final decission to go with Thermia was simply because the installation company gave me the best and most competent impression.
When it comes to on/off or variable speed compressors I choose on/off due to two reasons;
1. on/off is an older, well tested and more simple sollution that may offer better life time
2. the variable speed ones are usually a bit more efficient, but the savings did not justify the added cost for the more expensive pump.
This reasoning should be valid for you aswell, since you are looking at a ~8kW pump. For houses that need more power it is a bit different, and the common recommendation seems to be to go for a variable pump.
And I would back up what Anders_Nilsson said, go for some extra depth. Personally I went for 180meters even though the pump will work well with just 140meters. The cost for the extra depth is really small, and will increase the efficiency a bit, lower the risk of freezing the hole, and also secure that you most likely wont have to drill more in 20-30 years when its time to change pump
If the calculations from different companies you send a quoatation differs, if you want, you can check what data they have used. I noticed they calculated on different hole efficiencies for example, giving 1C colder or hotter Brine temperature can skew the results a bit, also they can calculate on different output temp at DUT etc.. so to get a good idea of efficiency and savings, I found the data sheets and my own calculations more interesting than trying to compare the quotes.
Hi, yes add meters to the hole. That is one thing tha't you cant change later. A hole lasts for 100 years so.. Atleast go to 160 meters. But 170-180 is better. I avoid IVT, go Nibe or Thermia. Drill atleast 4 meters from the house. Me personly today if where to install a new system. I go for Nibe and the modell F1126 and a big external waterheater and waterholder for the system. Go 500 liters. But that takes extra floorspace.
Thanks guys, your insight is really valuable for me. I have definately decided to request some extra depth, let's say 180m. It will cost just 250kr per metre according to my IVT installer.
Can you explain the value of having an external water holder? I have two water accumulator tanks (think they are 500l each) in my current system but was planning to have them removed, as the IVT installer said they are not required with the new system.
Can you explain the value of having an external water holder? I have two water accumulator tanks (think they are 500l each) in my current system but was planning to have them removed, as the IVT installer said they are not required with the new system.
Yes, its like this. There are 2 kinds of pumps the normal (on and off) and dynamic power type. This pump starts and heats the water and then stopps. In the summer, this gives that the runtime is very low. Pershapps the pump have to start, run for 7 minuets, and then stopp. This goes for every hour, and gives you 24 starts per day. The newer pums, that have a dynamic range they can change the amount of heat the pump gives, say from 12 down to 3. http://www.nibe.se/produkter/bergvarmepumpar/NIBE-F1255/ That gives a longer runningtime. And that is good, it then starts and stopps less, and that makes less wear and tear on the pump. The dynamic pumps like F1255 costs alot more, than an on/off type.
The normal pumps also have, two kinds of watertanks in them, one for warmwater and one of for the radiator system. But, if you get the modell that does not have the builtin watertanks (and they are cheaper), you have to have external watertanks. But, that way, you can have alot larger tanks. And that makes the system alot better/smother. That way, your on off pump perhapps only have to start and stopp 5 times per day in the summer. Makesure the external watertanks, inkludes system for warmwater. And also, making the pump work aginst an external tank, makes the heat to the radiors, change alot less. Simply the whole system runs more smothly, longer and have better economy.
The normal pumps also have, two kinds of watertanks in them, one for warmwater and one of for the radiator system. But, if you get the modell that does not have the builtin watertanks (and they are cheaper), you have to have external watertanks. But, that way, you can have alot larger tanks. And that makes the system alot better/smother. That way, your on off pump perhapps only have to start and stopp 5 times per day in the summer. Makesure the external watertanks, inkludes system for warmwater. And also, making the pump work aginst an external tank, makes the heat to the radiors, change alot less. Simply the whole system runs more smothly, longer and have better economy.
The IVT C9 and E9 system. The C modell have http://www.ivt.se/produkter/berg-jord-sjovarme/ivt-greenline-he/fakta-priser/ 185/40 liters, that is 40 Liter Warmwater and 185 litre to radiators.
The E modell have no internal watertanks.
The E modell have no internal watertanks.